[Marilyn Michele]

Tamaryn, I would repost your discussion if you want more interaction. Most of us were locked out of the discussion part of the TeaHouse and could not reply. I am figuring you finished your tincture. What did you do? How do you feel it went.

have you used the plums before? In what way. I am fascinated.

XMMmm

[Marilyn Michele]

Lovely lovely depiction of your Grand experience. Thank you

[Marilyn Michele]

PS the above is offering Cameron’s words with my response underlined to give distinction. I would have preferred a different font or some other way to show the exchange…. But that is what I attempted to do.

[Marilyn Michele]

Cameron, hi hi. It has been a while as many of us did not have access to discussions. And I was out of reach of the internet for a bit. But I enjoy you and our engagement and I wanted to honor your words with a full response.

I have taken what you wrote and written my response. I felt it was the only way I could be clear and on point with our exchange, bit by bit. So here it is…

I think I have an opinion that I stated because it’s what I think, not something to impose.

This is what we all do. But HOW we speak what we think is reflective of our welcoming of more than our own point of view.
I think that I am perceiving you as being sensitive to that because of personal experiences and I can do my best to honor that in this conversation. (Let me know if this is accurate or not)

So because I call you out on a type of dogmatic statements I am responding out of an experience. Not the case, unless we are referencing a lifetime of honing in how we exchange and what the impact is.

I also think that many want to believe that things external to them determine less than they do.

Because many have a posture you approach conversation as though we already have that point of view. I also find that as we enter life there is a molding of my life expression as form from ancestors, environment, upbringing. But I hardly find this deterministic. I find this opportunistic. Because who I am in these combinations is a variable which allows the impact to diversify and not be deterministic. IT IS a ground upon which I must navigate. But how I float my boat in these waters is of immense variety.

We rely on our ancestors, our environment, upbringing, etc to even be who we are. (Stating that as a fact)

I appreciate your sense of facts. But who I am is far more than what I was born into. I came in with an essence and knowing that facilitates my homeland confirmations, thus they are opportunistic and of greater variances depending upon my entry and participation.

Neither of us determined that.

Well it depends upon how much one considers how much we participated in our arrival. And some astrology speaks to that with Moon’s South Node, Pluto and the leading planets of each and so on. And Astrology points to that. Depending upon your fashion of astrology or you choice of astrology practice.

I believe that many deterministic elements exist within astrology. There are many telling elements of astrology, but I would suggest the balances of the eternal -all that is, as me, and the everyday banal expression as me, is much more fluid that you suggest.

And I think it’s foolish to see it as black and white.
I think it is more both/and. It is strong to call someone who might disagree as foolish. This is part of my sensitivity. To converse with you in many ways, is to be combative.

So, I would say, astrology has deterministic components as well as “free will” components to it. I find the term “free will” to be of old religious preoccupations of who is in charge. And as I have said, I have found this is a voice of man, not a voice of life’s vitality. For I find this is a distraction from knowing the source of life is full within each one of us.

I did say it in some absolute manner because, when you were 6 years old, the chart said things that you couldn’t change. But again I would argue this strong posture to be short sighted. Who is reading the chart and saying what is of my life at 6 is reading with their own rose colored glasses. How my life at 6 was, and what was the impact is not given within a chart. Even the key elements might be hinted at, but they are not a full-on descriptive of me. AND I find that as I live love, forgiveness and spacious acceptance my experience of being 6 years old changes. In my experience it has changed. The past and future are much more fluid than we have suggested with older deterministic terms as you provide them.

The chart says things about your parents that were determined.

I am not saying the chart is not relevant. It is very helpful and insightful. It is just not a 1+1=2 kind of chart distinction. The spark and life within each of us has more play than the formulas of thought I find you are applying.

How you respond and embody and work with/through these things is where agency exists. (All of this is to say, I stated something as fact and gave evidence for it. The invite is to share how that is not a self evident truth) I think I am attempting to be doing this.
Even then, I believe that we have a responsibility for our blood line, helping spirits, etc that in my world view would be foolish to even try to avoid. Because if we are here for a purpose, that is determined prior to incarnation and that is not something to resist…. In my opinion. So perhaps I own what I speak, indeed. And how I read the way you are offering this, I find what you are suggesting, it is more of a victim posture. I must succumb to what was given in my world as I entered. I would say it as more of a participatory spacious engagement as we enter life. As we enter our chart. I am full on honoring and engaging my ancestors. Don’t get me wrong. I know I was called forward generations ago, to be a change agent. I was called forward to offer healing to my ancestral lineage. And so on.

If we were really to break this down, I think we would even have to go back to address how we are defining identity as well though. Full yes. And I sense this is a key point of differentiation between us.

This conversation has many components to it I sense now that we are entering into discourse where things are being broken down. Full yes, Many components indeed. Many great components. As such I have endeavored to be engaged bit by bit.

P.S.
(My invitation in reflection is to ask more questions. Bravo, I love questions. I love engagements like this. I will try to do my best to honor what you’ve said as we exchange, And I totally feel this, and maybe this is part of why I am so direct with you in our engagement. but I don’t know if I am understanding what you are asking for fully in your response and reflection on how you are asking me to shift how I talk/share.) And I feel this, you are generous. I sense your heart is here and felt.

[Marilyn Michele]

Have you read Catafalque: Carl Jung and the End of Humanity by Peter Kingsley?

It may not be the angle you are taking, but as a historian he goes back to the Origins of Western Civilization and offers some great insights you might appreciate.

thriftbooks.com

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Kevala, this was a packed query for sure. Well done. As a professionally trained artist in the USA & England, and as one who taught Western Art History, I enjoy the approach you have taken. I might have a bit to pick with the summation of the video you offered, but it was useful to then reread your words after the video. Might you bring forward one premise of your questions? That would be a starting point I could jump in with.

I would come to the discussion with my training, but as well, I find the plant alchemical process one of the best models of movement through an illness. I find it shows the complexities and the space or process present for transformation. I don’t know but I might be leaning into the kumbaya territory of alchemical healing. (Which the video rejected.) I am acutely aware because I have had a life of acute to chronic and sometimes life threatening illnesses. And I have experienced transformation over and over and over again. Leaving me feeling, knowing and fully experiencing what a gift life is. Then I went into the Sajah’s alchemical lab. He walked us through the alchemical processes. And I was awestruck at the demonstration of lived transformation the alchemical lab demonstrated.

This being said, I find your query so valuable and a conversation I would love to engage. But I want to start with what you want to address first. And to begin with agreed upon terms and sources.

How do you feel about my request?

[Marilyn Michele]

Nance @deLaine Did you ever get into the Accessible Astrology group? Or have a reading? How is your astrology group going?

[Marilyn Michele]

Super groovy Nance. Eugenia is a great gal with notable research. Every time I look at her offerings I am impressed with her development. She does research and then follows it out. She doesn’t research to back up what she already thinks. She is amazing and so honest.

Keep us posted with what comes next.

[Marilyn Michele]

Did you ever get into the Accessible Astrology group? Or have a reading? How is your astrology group going?

[Marilyn Michele]

OK. This all is a wowzer… I am a bit overwhelmed. But I love you showing your passion.

So as you study and such drop a line or two of what you are discovering and how your research is impacting you, yes?

[Marilyn Michele]

I asked “Might you bring forward one premise of your questions?”

And I hear you saying it is finding the beginning folk, the beginning source of alchemy? And it needs to be offered by one who practices alchemy?

Just for clarifications.

[Marilyn Michele]

I am understanding deterministic as Google offers: relating to the philosophical doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will.

What I take away, is that the will is externalized. It is not within the core of a person. And that is the way I was taught in my religious up bringing. As well I have had many sources suggest the over arching will of ___________//something outside of myself/ is what I must bow to. Be it even a doctor.

As I have wrangled with this, I have clearly found affirmations galore that this, will or let’s say divine source, is central within me, and not external.

And thus the astrology chart is participatory not deterministic from my experiences.

And figuring how we take the term determinism is quite provocative to how we see astrology chart, yes?

I am enjoying the exchange, may you as well.

XMMmmm

google.com

Google

Google

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Cameron, thank you for your response. I appreciate your openness to how I heard you.

For me I hear from your statements a certainty which undercuts differing points of view. Like this IS that. And in my experience, that would be your point of view, so it would be an ‘I’ statement, “I think….” Which honoring that it is not THE point of view. Maybe I want to say that I find you make declarative statements. And for me that is problematic.

If I read you saying, I statements, “I find” determinism to mean thus and so, or be seen in such a way, then you are giving me references for your context. And then I could participate by saying “I see” it used in this way and I feel it would be ______.

I don’t want to be combative. But to disagree with you it feels I must be.

YES I am sensitive to blank statements as though the context is automatically known. When I was taught how to study ancient text, we always had to dig through the context to gain insight into what was being said. As an Art History teacher, I am looking at where, when and what was the context for this work.

I find giving my point of view without the context is non-inclusive. I need to provide my current context, my own references for saying what I say, which affirms what I am finding as my response.

Yes I have gone on and on. Because I think you may not see how your definitive statements are short sighted.

And I still fail at this myself. Seeing the cat is on the mat and then saying “the cat is on the mat” (is not the only form of languaging.) It may be correct but this requires us both knowing you see the mat.

XMMmm

[Marilyn Michele]

Big hugs back to you

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Cameron, so many things said here. You and I have engaged on Facebook a few times years back so I will speak straight forward and direct with you knowing your engagement style I have experienced. I appreciate your are offering of voice, very much. I also like the challenges. But for me to engage might you step into one of the many bits offered and then we can extend a conversation in to more.

Modern // Ancient

Deterministic as in…

Whole Chart OR Asc

Folks feelings about purpose…

There are many affirmative bits within one’s astrology chart. But there can be core dynamics of one in their life expressions which will not be distinct within a chart.

Maybe we are / I am looking at distinctions instead of determinations. I am wondering how we would define deterministic, and then which era or region of language we want to use as our reference, or even which paradigm for interpretation…

We need not agree on it all. At all. But oh what fun and joy to engage.