[Marilyn Michele]

• Sally Norton provides a documented example of how difficult it is with old data to diagnose oxalate toxicity or poisoning. Many household cleaners, as well as anti-freeze are oxalate loaded. The Bar Keeper’s powder and so on. There is a case where a woman was poisoning her husband with antifreeze in the wine. Now this is obvious toxicity. BUT consider how the medical field struggles to diagnose him. And consider his life long conditions due to the toxicity. He was rushed to the hospital with life threatening symptoms. The hospital didn’t know what was causing his symptoms. They never figured it out within their medical practice. A neighbor told the police she had been with the wife when they were seeing how much anti-freeze could be added to a glass of wine before it was noticed. Only then did the medical field discern the oxalate poison. I don’t have all of the details in mind, but he left after being in a comma for a few days, blind and in a wheel chair. Oxalate poisoning is not understood. It is big in the eyes. And it impacts more than the kidneys, UT.

  I had a high oxalate toxicity due to my “healthy” diet of whole grains (oats, quinoa, whole grain rice, millet, Teff, buckwheat, arrowroot ) & almonds, hazelnuts, peanuts and so on which are ALL high in oxalates. Obviously some more than others, but all very high. I had a food business where we sold superb delicious gluten free whole grain foods and flour blends. And I loved my peanut butter, robust salads with spinach, green tea, and chocolates within moderate limits. But I enjoyed each. My diet was 15x a safe range of oxalates. And the whole grains had been consumed well over a decade. I perfected and sold it. I decided to carefully drop my oxalate intake as it was likely impacting the confluence of health symptoms which for me were eye and broadly kidney UT concentrated.

  Oxalate toxicity is delicate. The body will store the excess. Oxalates will be stored in the eyes, bones, in scare tissue, in body organs, AND make havoc for UT & of course make kidney stones. IF I was to drop my high high oxalate intake, my body would start to flood a release, which would ravage my symptoms and redistribute the oxalates. I backed out slowly, over a 6 month period. And wowzer. I had a body restoration I had not seen in years. It was like magic. It is called the honeymoon phase. Because after another 6 months the body realizes it can start offing the oxalates. And that is rough all over again. The areas sensitive to oxalates flare up again.

  Aside from diet the key has been taking calcium which binds with oxalates to allow them to be taken out of our body. So I have a blend of minerals I take through the day, to help bind with oxalate dumping. And now it is a slow crawl along. The body symptoms returned because they were oxalate derived, and with oxalates flushing through the sensitive battered body sites are reactivated, but there is the long game here at play. So moderation, endurance and support played out.

  I am three years into this. And I am not just tending to myself. I have a few contacts , we meet weekly. We each are dealing with oxalates. And I am often a part of a support group who are navigating this. So I see the broader implications. I know of the numerous ways oxalates show up in the body, from the fellow long term folk I walk this out with. Who are herbal queens. One is life time herbalist, the other a professional herbalist.

  I do suspect that those of us who had other body conditions prior to oxalate overload are more susceptible to oxalates. I see this correlation as well. I do not have verification aside from my observation.

  And while I know the diet. I know the external and internal mineralizing.

  What I am looking for is do we know when oxalates are removed from herbs? It is suggested that a tincture does not carry forward the oxalates. As well how about Spagyrics? Has this been verified? Does anyone know of such research? It is suggested that teas do carry forward the oxalates. Would one water extraction diminish the oxalates- enough to make it a low dose (3-5 mg oxalate) per serving0? Set the tea for 5 minutes and dump that, to redo it? I know folk think this works with almonds. Soak them overnight and they are fine. Except that a handful of almonds is 400 mg oxalates. 8x a day’s measure. Soaking them makes it 350mg. Still not within a day’s safe margins.

  Anyone else looking into oxalates?

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Marilyn Michele.

[Marilyn Michele]

Your confusion is justified. This crosses over the standard for healthy eating. No question. I had no idea I was loading my body with oxalates in eating all of my whole grains from around the world. (Teff, Quinoa, Buckwheat and so on. As well as Almond flour.)

Oxalates build as we store them in our bodies. When the ‘problems’ arise will depend upon the load and your condition.

I am not going to explain their damage better than Sally K Norton. She has lots of free information on her website. She has honed in on this and offers scientific clarity.

I have experienced this first hand. And I have women who have joined me in this discovery, each for ourselves. Both life time herbalist. One an practitioner trained in chiropractic medicine. And I have been apart of oxalate support group/online lecture.

Yes, oxalates impact kidneys. I noticed them the most when I was getting constant UTIs and then realized I was passing stones. I had constant, all day acidic pH. The cloudiness and acidic pH has gone away completely unless I miss my minerals and eat higher amounts of oxalates. But oxalates impact eyes often. They can be a factor in joint pain. They can store in bones causing osteoporoses. They can be a factor in breast cancer and so on. I am listing my experiences. There are many other’s.

When it was recognized I was celiac. The way it manifested in my body was unique. And there were many ways gluten disrupted folk’s bodies in similar ways. But there were many variances of impact. Why is it not likely that oxalates show up differently? There are some main ways it shows up. But there are many variables.

Yes we should as health practitioners be aware of oxalates.

Yes it is a massive dietary shift.

Yes the longer we ignore oxalates the longer it will take for them to clear out of our bodies. I am in my 3rd year, rounding into my 4rth this late summer. And I am JUST getting some stability. But going off my restricted diet throws my body quickly into a tail spin.

GREAT questions. GREAT insight with your query. You are mark on. But it is against the grain of what is expected. And that is really really hard.

[Marilyn Michele]

I can easily list my minerals. But I got them from Sally K Norton’s book. She had several recommendations. Her book is easy to read and for me and those who have read it, we have found her very reliable.

[Marilyn Michele]

Except this chart is not accurate Chad. Just blackberries are listed low, but in actuality they are a high oxalate food. The older data is just flimsy in its reliability. I am curious if you looked at Sally K Norton’s website. I say this as I and other’s have looked over numerous website offerings and they variability was frustrating. I used this chart prior to getting the book Data by Sally.

[Marilyn Michele]

Rebekah, how is your kidney journey going? Is there non prescriptive practices which you employ to support your kidney function? I take a set of various minerals peppered throughout the day to keep any flushing oxalates which are leaving my body to be bound and flush out. And to feed my mineral balances. I understand the flush or release of oxalates can typically last 7 years while on a low oxalate diet.

I agree cleaning products can be loaded with oxalates and I have come to understand contact causes absorption. The kidneys are fascinating, beautiful and delicate.

Have you tried Nettle seed? I have been harvesting nettle seeds for a few years now. I have been using them straight on my foods like pepper. But maybe it would be best to try a tincture of them instead. Seeds can be higher in oxalates. A factor of plant protection.

X

[Marilyn Michele]

Chad – have you gone to Sally K Norton’s website? Or have you investigated in other directions?

[Marilyn Michele]

Chad, yes research shows that oxalates can cause kidney stones. It did for me. But that was old research news, now we know that oxalates can cause many other conditions. And the rough bit is – what foods we thought were high in oxalates, in other words what is on the oxalate list to avoid, is inaccurate. Cornell nursing guide had a page of oxalate high foods which was 25% wrong. So there is a gal, Sally K. Norton who I have read and worked with. She is providing current research and data. Go to her website. And her online books are pretty reasonable in cost.

( https://sallyknorton.com/oxalate-science/ )

I am on holiday and not at my computer very often. But while I am here let me share with you my experience. In my next post.

sallyknorton.com

Little known facts about oxalates and their poisonous effects - Sally K. Norton

The oxalic acid in the plants we eat can cause generalized health problems such as poor concentration and joint stiffness - even carpel tunnel syndrome.

[Marilyn Michele]

Wish I could edit some of my typos which are above… or periods instead of a comma. I think you all can get the gist of what I am trying to share…

• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Marilyn Michele.

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Cynthia thanks for engaging. Buy Sally K Norton’s book. And you will learn a good deal more.

For just $2.50 check out this beginner’s guide to overcome oxalate overload. The link DOES work….

https://shop.sallyknorton.com/products/beginners-guide-to-overcoming-oxalate-overload

• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Marilyn Michele.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Marilyn Michele.

shop.sallyknorton.com

Beginner's Guide to Overcoming Oxalate Overload

The Beginner's Guide is a colorful three-page document that explains the basics for getting started with oxalate-aware eating. The Guide answers common questions about the purpose, safety, and flexibility of this eating strategy. Page two visually presents an overview of the … Continue reading

[Marilyn Michele]

My heart sends vibes of love and respect for your sister’s courage and fight. Victorians thought they were fancy in eating rhubarb leaves. That is oxalate poisoning.

Oddly we don’t know oxalates well. Some folk still clean with oxalate cleaners, the white powdered for scrubbing like Bon Ami, or Bar Keepers while NOT wearing gloves. And then their hands are all stiff and inflamed.

Let me know if you learn more on oxalates.

X

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Michelle, wisdom is felt as you spoke. Thanks for engaging.

X

[Marilyn Michele]

Sajah with all due respect, those oxalate conditions are just a beginning.

The other day I ate more oxalates that usual due to a dinner someone else provided. And while they were careful with it being gluten free I was on vacation and missed giving them a broader list. The foods had almond flour, whole grain flour, maybe some turmeric, and so on. I was guilty for taking to nibbles of chocolate.

I keep a journal spreadsheet style of symptoms. I rank my body’s wellness as well making notes on sleep latency, duration & depth, number of times for night urination, pH levels of urine throughout the day, waking energy, emotional -mental – physical flows, skin conditions, duration of the day’s energies. I keep track of my tongue and my body’s kidney signals. As well as specific ways that oxalates target my body. Such as my eyes, old joint injuries (driving hip, and knees are clear flares), and scars.

Now it could be said, well that is too broad a list. Except nearly all cleared up in my first year of dropping out the oxalates. And then as my body started dumping, these symptoms flared. As I am three years in, most of these symptoms have wained or completely cleared – until I eat oxalates again! That meal I spoke of, most all of the numerous symptoms I listed flared back up over night. I had severe inflammation throughout my body. Cloudy urine. And old scars screaming with pain.

As I need to keep my diet at 40 – 50 mg per meal licorice tea will overload me as in 1 tsp is 70 mg oxalates. While 1 tsp of turmeric is 50 mg. Yet a turmeric essential oil has trace oxalates. Cinnamon 1 tsp has 60 mg oxalates, the essential oil has trace. Slippery elm bark powder, 1 TBS is 110 mg. Clearly that much slippery elm powder goes a long way. Milk thistle 1 TBS 210 mg oxalates. Chaga mushrooms powder 1 tsp – 210 mg oxalates. But how about a tincture of it?

I am wondering if the tincturing reduces the oxalates to trace amounts and that is why tinctures have been so remarkable in my addressing cancer treatment adverse events.

Allowing the impacts of oxalates to be understood as they happen throughout the body. And considering the vast overload of oxalates our healthy diets present I feel this is a responsibility as vital practitioner’s we become better informed. I took your courses both the Alchemical Herbalism, and the Vitalist to gain insight on my own body and medicine making for me and my family. It has been revolutionary for me. And I sense it could be a crucial source of aid to those in oxalate toxicity IF our processes remove oxalates. Does tincturing remove them? Does a Spagyric add some back in through calcining? Does a decoction need to have a wash bath first? But would this dilute the plants offering? Viable plant constitutes could be accessible where otherwise in tea or simple powder form they are of higher risk to overload with oxalates.

Thanks for engaging.

X

[Marilyn Michele]

You are exactly right. What research WAS is very limited. Again Sally K Norton’s with a master’s in Public Health was primarily a plant eater. She had horrible feet conditions that kept her from running. She has been a spear head on the research. Her website has loads of free materials. And she has a couple of reasonably priced books. One is just DATA on current reliable research showing oxalate levels.

As I understand it, oxalates are primarily a plant protection condition. So yes many plants, and herbs have high or a strong load of oxalates. So yes primarily plant diets can be easily overloaded with oxalates. And that doesn’t include all of the alternative milks. They are severely loaded with oxalates.

I was coming out of a toxic overload (severe cancer treatment’s adverse events, a dozen years out.) And I heard Sally in an online symposium. She spoke of super high oxalate foods. Spinach, almonds, (or most nuts) peanut butter, chocolate, and whole ancient grains (buckwheat, teff, quinoa, and so on) ALL of which were in my diet with regularity. In other words when 130 – 220 mg is a normal daily range, I was in the 1000+mg range daily. Just from the foods listed above, let alone others I didn’t recognize.

Today after an initial slow decline WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, slowly drop the oxalate load in your diet! Today I am on a 40mg oxalates a day. With numerous practices to help bind oxalates and flush the off loading my body is doing due to storage of oxalates. I ate a high ancient grain diet for over a decade. I made superb gluten free blends with ancient grains. It was a family business. And it was stunningly good. But it loaded me with oxalates, in a cancer treatment adverse event body. I thought I was doing just the right thing incorporating ancient whole grains.

I will respond in Sajah’s comment with some numbers of oxalates in herbs we don’t suspect.

I would like you to check out Sally’s website https://sallyknorton.com/relief/#food-list or if you find other’s let me know as well. I had a friend who is a research geek. And she found so much inaccurate information which was well respected, past tense.

PS Sally does not know I am referencing her here. But she is my most reliable source.

sallyknorton.com

Dump the healthy foods that are bad for your health. - Sally K. Norton

Relieve the pain of oxalate poisoning, choose nutritious low-oxalate options, and lower your oxalate intake. Here's why that's easier said than done.

[Marilyn Michele]

Here here dear one I sure embrace and enfold you, your heart, your story as you share. Thank you for vividly including me. That felt really nice.

I know I am of light. One of my guardians is Lucifer (Light Bringer) which is Venus. But even the name as she offered herself to me IS curious, right? I gave her a good challenge. As I do. But not for long. It was just for clarification.

I came in this life expression very attuned to that of the heavenly realms. But I was to walk clearly in the mud, and deep into the subterranean.

And if I may say, in the darkness there is -dark mother, and there is -shadow lands. Distinct in my view. But aren’t they often closely intertwined? What say you?

I find for me, with age ripening life up, multiple journeys of acute to chronic, to threatening illness, there is a perfuming and juiciness in it all. The complex / shit and shine-o-lah / of our world has less grip. The traction it wants to suggest is part of the play. And the dance within such play becomes less cerebral, and more felt, more balanced within. The mind comes to actively, or … more often ; ), support balancing instead of holding to being the master of the play, but to serve love as life as me as banal. Let me offer that some are here to master within the play. And I applaud that for them. But I have been side-lined with my life expression over and again within the play… flopped right down into the muck. Stuck in the muck. And referencing astrology, doesn’t Venus love that!? Venus in my chart sure does. My Venus in Taurus 9-house, says, yes to the mucky muddy’ness of my terrains. Mucky sometimes stuck muddy play as life. And yes to the wisdom therein. But the bounty of life’s juiciness, the perfume, the intimacy of relationship with all for me is often of “muckiness.”

So…one of the gifts given to me in this life expression, since I am in all this mud, this earthiness, I paint with the colors of earth and rock!! How fabulous is that? It is awesome. I am very grateful.

What tangible, maybe small, whatever… what blessing has landed your way of late?

Let’s keep engaged as it lifts. I welcome any more of your querying.

[Marilyn Michele]

Hey Chad, what a delight to be engaged with you. Bravo you. I am experiencing with you that of mirroring, and as we go we are rubbing the rust off of each other’s mirrors. This is an old expression I heard, which I like. Or as scripture says “iron sharpening iron.”

Owning and expressing “your story” is felt here. AND more and more, I feel you are not asking me to be in your story. I am in full appreciation. And I am hearing you better.

While your realm expressed is more of the heavens, mine has been the subterranean. More dark mother love kindled. For me, as Western culture is all set up for the heavenly narrative and often misaligned with dark mother, my eye is sharp, and I easily call out felt imbalances. The imbalance is heavy and most often strongly held. Held on to dearly.

I too have guardians, guides, angels. There is no intent to disregard another’s. We are of many more dimensions than just 3D. But we are of this banal, embodied life. And within this, this body is a bounty of wisdom. And we are cousins and children with all of 3D life expressions. Wisdom bubbles up beyond the practices of our Western ways.

I love the books by Some. He wrote, “Such living is what ancient tribes have adapted for thousands of years. And its success can be seen in the fact that in it there is room for the entire person to exist.” Patrice Malidoma Some” Pg 22 Ritual Having room for the entire person to exist. Many heavenly practices do not allow for me, my entire person to exist. And while there is much glory and goodness in heavenly ways it is only as they allow room for the entire person to exist. I am not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water. But I am keen to see that so much of the Christian church has been co-opted by Western Civilization.

I do feel you are allowing room for me. I find your expressions and engagement are making room for me. But I will challenge, present a voice of discomfort or difference. And I thank you. Do we have more rust to rub off of our mirrors? Indeed. But I can hear and feel much of what we share to be more of same’ness. I must go feed my dogs. They are good beggars when I am late!

• This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Marilyn Michele.